Re: [ldm-users] [noaaport] [conduit] [External] Re: [mcidas-x] Concerns about the future of UNIDATA

  • To: Mike Zuranski <zuranski.wx@xxxxxxxxx>, "mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, NOAAPORT <noaaport@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Subject: Re: [ldm-users] [noaaport] [conduit] [External] Re: [mcidas-x] Concerns about the future of UNIDATA
  • From: Pete Pokrandt <poker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 20:49:20 +0000
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All,

As a long-time Unidata customer/collaborator, former Users Committee member and 
fellow De Sousa award winner, I feel the need to get involved in this 
discussion, though I am not quite sure how to reply to this series.

Like others who have chimed in, I am concerned that having this discussion over 
email could lead to misunderstandings (as it seems already to have with the 
back and forth with Stonie) and unproductive debate.

I do agree with many of the points that Gilbert, Henry and Bill have made 
regarding analysis software, concerns about upcoming NOAAPort data channel 
changes, communication about changes, etc, so not I'm not going to rehash those 
here. Although some of the changes are beyond Unidata (e.g. Moving from gempak 
to AWIPS - that was based on an NWS decision)

I also have to say that I think that some of the decisions/directions that 
Unidata has been at the forefront of do make sense. When I was on the Users 
committee (2015-2018) one of the big discussions was moving the data analysis 
closer to where the data lives, since the data is getting so much larger and 
diverse. Does it really make sense to download the entire 0.25 degree GFS 
forecast out to 384 hours when all you want to plot is a 500 hPa vorticity map? 
Or even a dozen maps. Having all of the data live on a remote site (or sites) 
like a THREDDS server really makes sense

I will say that I was rather stunned that the person hired to take over many of 
Tom Yoksas' duties when he retired was one of the people being let go in this 
latest series of layoffs. That seems like an important connection with the 
Unidata community that has now been lost. I also was surprised that the 
notification to the community of said layoffs came from the employee himself, 
and not from Unidata leadership. The silence from the leadership at Unidata 
regarding that, as well as this current discussion is a bit unnerving.



Pete Pokrandt - System Engineer IV
UW-Madison Dept of Atmospheric and Oceanic Sciences
608-262-3086  - poker@xxxxxxxxxxxx
________________________________
From: noaaport <noaaport-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Mike Zuranski 
<zuranski.wx@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, August 8, 2024 10:35 AM
To: mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 
ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; NOAAPORT 
<noaaport@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Stonie Cooper <cooper@xxxxxxxx>; Gallus, William A [EAC] 
<wgallus@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [noaaport] [conduit] [External] Re: [mcidas-x] Concerns about the 
future of UNIDATA

Howdy everyone,

I intend to stay on the sidelines for this exchange as it doesn't feel entirely 
appropriate for me to jump in.  I'm chiming in now to only say two things with 
the intent being clarification & transparency:

First, I believe Stonie was referring to the LDM topics exclusively and was not 
representing the entire UPC, all staff nor all projects.  I would avoid 
applying his words to other parts of Unidata outside the LDM.

Second, in the last staff meeting I was present for our director had committed 
to addressing these concerns to the community.  He did not state what would be 
addressed or when this messaging would be sent out, but he stated that he would 
write something.  I'm disappointed to see that has not yet happened.  Unidata 
staff do not have the answers as far as I know, as of when I left we had many 
of these same questions ourselves.  I remain hopeful that our director will 
inform us what happened, how and why, as well as plans for Unidata moving 
forward.  I feel confident in saying these are questions we all have.


Best,
-Mike

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 10:16 AM Gallus, William A [EAC] via conduit 
<conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
I was going to avoid getting involved in this discussion since it seemed to 
turn toxic almost immediately but Henry's mention that there are likely others 
not willing to speak up motivated me to say something.  At ISU, the two of us 
who teach courses that have regularly used Unidata products in the past agree 
wholeheartedly with Gilbert.  If I knew more python, and my colleague had more 
time (since he does know python well), we would have abandoned traditional 
Unidata products by now, and would simply have our students run python codes to 
generate the maps needed for our weekly labs, instead of using Unidata products 
since we feel abandoned by them (I realize Unidata is responsible for MetPy and 
we are thankful for that, but the single best thing Unidata could have been 
doing for us in recent years was making very simple-to-use python codes 
available that we could just give to the students to do things like compute 
frontogenesis, create isentropic cross-sections, vertical cross-sections of EPV 
for CSI evaluation, etc (where the students would simply have to change maybe 
the link to a dataset, and perhaps contour intervals or levels/layers).  AWIPS2 
never became a good option for those of us with decades of great cases archived 
in gempak format (boy how I wish there was an easy way to turn those archived 
datasets into things AWIPS2 could ingest so that we could still have our 
students use those cases for labs – assuming AWIPS2 would actually run well on 
our computers).  Both of us tried over the years to learn to like IDV and 
constantly found it to be terrible, and our students did not like the little 
bit of dabbling we did with it.   Thus, we continue to hang on by a thread, 
using garp and gempak, and hoping desperately they still work after every 
update/upgrade to our systems, while constantly talking about how we need to 
find some way to get away from all of that and just have students use python.

I have talked to other profs who teach synoptic courses and it seems like the 
use of python in labs is really growing, to replace all the programs we used to 
associate with Unidata.

In any case, I echo what Henry said and was stunned at the harshness of the 
replies to Gilbert's email.  We at ISU agree with Gilbert and feel very sad and 
abandoned, and these feelings have been developing for many years now.  I 
served on both the Unidata Users Committee and Strategic Advisory Committees in 
the past, chairing them at times, and don't recall seeing such an angry and 
unhelpful reply ever in my years on those committees, when we in the community 
would express concerns and share our needs with Unidata staff.  I'm not sure 
what the root of the problem is – I just know there is a problem because I am 
in the trenches teaching 2 required lab courses every year that have depended 
on traditional Unidata software every week.

Bill


________________________________
From: conduit 
<conduit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:conduit-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on 
behalf of Henry Luker via conduit 
<conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2024 7:31 PM
To: Stonie Cooper <cooper@xxxxxxxx<mailto:cooper@xxxxxxxx>>
Cc: mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>; NOAAPORT 
<noaaport@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:noaaport@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>; 
mcidas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:mcidas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<mcidas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:mcidas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>; 
conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>; 
ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
<ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [conduit] [noaaport] [External] Re: [mcidas-x] Concerns about the 
future of UNIDATA

I'm a little disheartened, to say the least, at the responses to this 
conversation thus far. I believe that Gilbert raised completely valid concerns 
and constructive criticism in a professional manner, that were neither personal 
nor directed at any individual in particular. Speaking to his concerns, I can 
attest that these are shared by myself personally, and at least a few others as 
well (who may not be as willing to speak up, especially after seeing how it is 
being received now!). The responses received seem defensive, hostile, and 
apprehensive to an active and long-term member of the UNIDATA community. I 
would hope that as professionals we would be able to have a more open and 
honest conversation, that frankly goes beyond "Developers prerogative." 
Ultimately, it all leads me to wonder whether the community is actually valued 
or not at UNIDATA, beyond saying as such in the mission statement.

I am a fairly new member to the community. When I first arrived, I found that 
it was welcoming, transparent, and community-based. Even as someone who was 
learning tools like LDM for the first time, I appreciated the open-source, 
community-driven, and patient nature exhibited. I am not sure if I could say 
the same now. At minimum, it would be nice to have a bit more transparency 
about the future of the projects and decisions that are being made. I don't 
understand the reasoning for making things walled off all the sudden, nor 
understand why it can't at least be explained beyond "it's my way or the 
highway." We may not agree, but at least we would have some insight as to what 
is going on and don't have to be in this position in the first place.

Henry

On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:58 PM Stonie Cooper 
<cooper@xxxxxxxx<mailto:cooper@xxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Developers prerogative.

Stonie Cooper
Software Engineer III
NSF Unidata Program Center
University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
I acknowledge that the land I live and work on is the traditional home of The 
Chahiksichahiks (Pawnee), The Umoⁿhoⁿ (Omaha), and The Jiwere (Otoe).


On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:54 PM Sebenste, Gilbert 
<sebensteg@xxxxxxx<mailto:sebensteg@xxxxxxx>> wrote:

Stonie,

I am not lobbing grenades at those in the trenches. I’m just trying to find out 
what is going on in the trenches…and I would like to know the reasons why.

Gilbert



Gilbert Sebenste

Meteorology Support Analyst


[cid:ii_1913292abae4cff311]



From: Stonie Cooper <cooper@xxxxxxxx<mailto:cooper@xxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Wednesday, August 7, 2024 4:51 PM
To: Sebenste, Gilbert <sebensteg@xxxxxxx<mailto:sebensteg@xxxxxxx>>
Cc: ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ldm-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 
mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:mcidas-x@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; NOAAPORT 
<noaaport@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:noaaport@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>; 
mcidas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:mcidas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; 
conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:conduit@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [External] Re: [mcidas-x] Concerns about the future of UNIDATA



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Development in LDM continues, but not in github.  That is for a lot of reasons, 
but lobbing grenades at those still in the trenches will get you next to 
nowhere.


Stonie Cooper, PhD

Software Engineer III

NSF Unidata Program Center

University Corporation for Atmospheric Research

I acknowledge that the land I live and work on is the traditional home of The 
Chahiksichahiks (Pawnee), The Umoⁿhoⁿ (Omaha), and The Jiwere (Otoe).





On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:04 PM Sebenste, Gilbert 
<sebensteg@xxxxxxx<mailto:sebensteg@xxxxxxx>> wrote:

Good day everyone,



With the recent loss of 3 extremely valuable UNIDATA staff members, I wanted to 
inquire UNIDATA concerning several disturbing trends that I have been seeing 
with the organization. And quite frankly, what I discovered is disconcerting.



Over the past several years, UNIDATA has been moving away from what it was 
funded to do, namely: provide weather data, software, and support to the 
University community for teaching, and also for research:

“Unidata is a diverse community of education and research institutions with the 
common goal of sharing geoscience data and the tools to access and visualize 
that data.” – 
https://www.unidata.ucar.edu/about<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.unidata.ucar.edu/about__;!!Mak6IKo!PEuQGk7ZAZD2oLuaKHRmjb5oa0epeADGmIF-WByYpti35ev5u_VV3gI1aLR66dFxerRFZoRdTLAUAIT_4H9y9g$>



With  this stated goal, excellent software packages used to support the 
educational and research communities have either been retired. or development 
has stopped…with minimal input from the user community. These software packages 
include GEMPAK, McIDAS, LDM (which hasn’t been touched on GitHub since Steve 
Emmerson retired), as well as others. In fact, McIDAS was sunset without any 
announcement or input from universities.

When I brought these concerns to the Unidata User Committee chair, Victor 
Gensini, I found out that he had resigned nearly a month ago. This, again, was 
done without any announcement to the community. The User’s Committee is much 
more than an advisory board; it is one of shared governance. And the decisions 
made over the past several years have now culminated in an utter lack of 
transparency with the recent loss of staff. In a scientific community, the 
governing process must involve transparency to the highest extent possible to 
maintain integrity of the staff, community, services they provide, data, and 
success for end users.

This is already starting to have a profoundly negative effect at the College of 
DuPage, which prompted me to write this. Even though we are a community 
college, we believe in UNIDATA’s stated vision and have shared our data via our 
website to all. Our setup here shares the weather data as much as we are able. 
Without UNIDATA’s McIDAS, GEMPAK, WXP and other software packages, we will not 
be able to share this data with others; additionally, we will not be able to 
teach the next generation of students with adequate software tools in a time 
where interest in the atmospheric sciences is about to peak. As a result, we 
have started to migrate towards commercial solutions to fill in the gaps. In 
the first 20 years of UNIDATA, that would be unthinkable.

What is being supported? IDV is being built on a dying platform (Java), with 
apparently very few users, and one of the two AWIPS developers was one of the 
three people let go. What is left? Two of these staff members were the future 
of UNIDATA, and the other took care of critical systems and engagement with 
underserved communities. Who is doing that now? Nobody has answered these 
questions.

Complete transparency has been and continues to be absolutely critical to the 
success that highlighted UNIDATA’s efforts over many years. These decisions 
have been made in darkness. Where leadership has been required, silence has 
occurred. It should not have been left to a terminated employee to make that 
announcement on his own free will.

I am saying this with all sincerity because I believe that UNIDATA is going 
off-mission. I am speaking out like this because I am gravely concerned that 
UNIDATA has lost it’s way, delving into areas beyond what it was supposed to 
be, while failing to maintain and flourish what it’s mission statement demands. 
The end result has been the loss of critical software and support that we need, 
as an educational institution. And let’s be blunt here: if the 
https://weather.cod.edu<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://weather.cod.edu/__;!!Mak6IKo!PEuQGk7ZAZD2oLuaKHRmjb5oa0epeADGmIF-WByYpti35ev5u_VV3gI1aLR66dFxerRFZoRdTLAUAIRkkK5yvQ$>
 site went down, a lot of Universities who use us would be in trouble. We know, 
because we see the number of “hits” from them in our web logs. And, if the LDM 
isn’t maintained, especially with major NOAAport/SBN feed changes on the 
horizon, the very backbone of the NWS data feed is in jeopardy. If McIDAS isn’t 
maintained, our satellite imagery goes away. And despite requests for Canadian 
radar data and other datasets that can be helpful (several Canadian radars 
cover portions of the border states reasonably well), not a yes or a no has 
been spoken to me.



UNIDATA, as a DeSouza award winner, I beg that you turn back to what made you 
great: tried and true, as well as new software…data and software for all of us, 
and unquestionable, excellent support.

With respect,

Gilbert Sebenste

Meteorology Support Analyst



[cid:ii_1913292abae4cff311]



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--
- Mike Zuranski

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